Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

[poondi badri]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

dear friends

I came to make a correction in my post here that is somehow not found. May be it is withheld for scrutiny by the admin.

The date of visit of St Thomas was 52 AD (nearly 2000 years ago, before a millenium of St Ramanuja) and not 5 centuries ago, as mistakenly referred in the narrative. Only the structures in St Thomas Mt seems to have come up much later

If the post is still in moderation, the above correction may be made before having it posted in this site.


have a grt day all of u!

p badri

[poondi badri]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

dear friends

I recall an article appearing in the Sri Ramakrishna Vijayam, the Tamil monthly from Sri Ramakrishna Math that explained the flawed belief being nurtured by Madras Christians about the "killing of St Thomas" five centuries ago, by a brahmin (there is said to be a painting of tufted brahmin with Vaishnav Oordhva pundra markings on forehead displayed in the building on the St Thomas Mount). The article inter alia stated that the Vaishnav marks (oordhva pundram) was not in vogue 2000 years ago when the incident is believed to have happened...The markings had evidently come much later, since the swami's of the Mutt are not likely to put a moot point without proper verification.Ok, let me come to another aspect of Vaishnavism. Late poojya Kanchi Maha swami had said (Deivathin Kural, Part II) how the two "kalais'' of vaishnavism stood for two distinct and wonderful Prapathi systems (the Maarjaara kishore Maarg of the Thenkalai followers and the Markataka kishore maarg of the Vadakalai followers). If you read the Aarthi Prapandam of Sri Manavala Munigal (I am a vadakalai fellow by birth but enjoy the beauty of literature from both sects), the kitten temperament (that depends entirely on its mother for its care) would be evident throughout his out pourings of appeals to Sri Ethiraja - unlike the Desika literature where the devotion is poured on the Lord (like the kid monkey holding on to its mom tightly)!

But we leave the beautiful essence of the respective theologies and hold on to differences in perception that are like the exteriors of the Maargas! Gandhiji was a Vaishnav Vaisya who adored the famous song of Nari Mehta who sings of the traits of ideal Vaishnavas: "Vaishnav janatho.." sung by late MS still rings in our ears! The Upaasana Maarg of groups like Vaishnavs, holding on single Name and Form of the Divine, may not brook of any deviation to propitiate "other Forms and Names" followed by others.. but there needs to be no hostility on that account! The pity is they fight even among their own denominations, unmindful of the great damage they make of their own culture.

It is heartening that star speakers like Sri Velukudi Krishnan Swamy are trying to respect the literature of both denominations, profusely quoting from Desika compositions in their lectures.

In the world every Faith / Belief system suffers this sort of cleavage over time due to sheer ignorance and bigotry of ethno centric people! Christianity split, Budhism split, Islam split and so did our own Belief systems. It is a sad testimony to the basic weakness of humans to get egoistic and shirk inclusiveness.

Every effort should be made by us to inculcate the sense of respect to all Belief systems, while following our own tradition in the way taught to us by elders. Senior citizens like me are finding it difficult to teach our traditional practices among the youth due to strong influence of western culture in society, the secular educaiton, wrong social values spread by Activists of sorts (neo liberals), job environment etc Let us pray God to help revive our Vedic glories discarding narrow sectarian perceptions!

Jai Sri Ram
poondi badri

[bmbcAdmin]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

Sri:
Dear Respected Sri.Brahmanyan Sir,
What you have mentioned is almost correct.
In addition to that an important doctrinal difference is there:

While Vadakalai is having the faith that Goddess Sri.Mahalakshmi is capable of recommending (purushakAram) jivas for their moksham and she is a greater soul than normal jivas.
But, as per Thenkalai they believe that Sriman Narayana is the only one supreme God to give moksha and Sri Mahalakshmi is also like a normal jiva.
This is the main difference but there are lot of difference in practice and sentiments like what you have mentioned in your post.

people know only this difference regarding the application of the caste marks in the form of 'U' by the Vadakalai and 'Y'

Best regards,
nvs

[Brahmanyan]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

vadakalai vs thenkalai

Respected Sri NVS,
As a seeker of knowledge I have been wondering about the differences between Vadakalai and Thenkalai, thanks to the internet, I am able to read quite a number of articles on the subject.

My understanding of the difference between Vadakalai and Thenkalai is from reading articles in internet sources. May not be adequate for scholarly discussions. I am open for corrections.

The differences are based on doctrinal interpretations. "The Vadakalai follow the doctrines of Vedanta Desika and Ramanuja, while the Thenkalai follow the doctrines of Manavalamamunigal and Ramanuja".

Vadakalais emphasize the need of Some positive gesture of the individual soul (Jeevathma) to deserve the grace of God and attain moksa. the Vadakalai holds that man has to win god's grace through his efforts and he has to cling on to god, like an infant monkey clinging on to its mother. Which is called "markata nyaya"

Tenkalais emphasize the greatness and overwhelming grace of the Lord to "save His own",He saves the soul on His own initiative; and the devotee should not try to force Him. Lord's grace is spontaneous and He can grant moksa to anyone He wishes.The Thenkalai holds that devotion is all that is necessary and that god will on his own initiative carry the devotee to salvation, like a cat carrying a kitten, which is called "marjara nyaya".

There are about 18 such points of differences (ashtadasa bhedas) with varying degrees of insignificance based purely on interpretation of scholars.

In fact, most people know only this difference regarding the application of the caste marks in the form of 'U' by the Vadakalai and 'Y' by the Thenkalai sects. This is an example of how over- enthusiastic fanatics could blow up insignificant and inconsequential distinctions to abnormal proportions to the level of transfering to animate and inanimate things and taking the dispute to highest Courts of Law.

Namaskaram,


Brahmanyan,

Bangalore

[Priya Radhi]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

நன்றாக எடுத்துரைதீர்கள். ஆனாலும், திவ்யதேசஙகளில் ஏற்படும் வேதனையை விவரிக்க இயலாது. வைஷ்ணவத்துக்கு வைஷ்ணவமே தரம் தாழ்த்த எடுக்கும் செயல்கள் எவ்வளவு பாதிப்பை ஏற்படுத்துகின்றன என்பது யாவரும் அறிந்ததே. இயலாமையை சோகத்துடன் வெளிபடுத்ததான் முடியும். நன்றி.

[bmbcAdmin]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

Sri:
I am also unable to read this now.
So, let us find a way to read it or let us forget it,
and try to post a new reply with new developed thoughts.
regs,
nvs

[soundararajan50]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

Sir I am using Mozilla fire fox in my pc. I have followed your instructions but still i could not get the correct version of cryptic message.Meanwhile when i tried in internet explorer it asked me to install adobe flash player i have installed that too still couldn't.

[soundararajan50]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

Madam , The question has been raised first of all to know what is what from the scholars and further we have to educate our children about the richness of our culture and to advice them not to sink in differences your view and opinion about the thread to your age is most appreciable

[Priya Radhi]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

Ha Ha Ha funny, we speak about vadakalai and thenkalai, when the younger generation go to the extent of marrying chinese !!!We should preserve our vaishnavite culture, imbibe in children and sink such minor differences

[P.R.RADHAKRISHNAN]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

Thank You Sir, Now I got it.
Regards ans Namaskarams
Radhakrishnan

[soundararajan50]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

Excellent Sir. I Thank you very much for clearing my nagging doubt for quite a long time.

[pcram]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

We need not go into this complex matter now since from time immemorial dissimilarities do exist between the two sects and nothing has changed . We would

only be giving vent to our feelings in public which would not produce any desired result. As long as there is no unity between both thenkalai and vadakalai sects in

all respects the status quo ante would continue. Let us pray for the well being of all irrespective of the customs followed at different Vaishnavite temples.

PC RAMABADRAN

[bmbcAdmin]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai Let me give a quick and partial list of the 18 or so differences between the two kalais. Let me also add that the two kalais lived happily together despite their doctrinal differences up until about 300 or so years. A partial list of major differences on matters of doctrine and theology:

No.	Concept	Vadakalai	Thenkalai
1.	Who is supreme Ishwara?	Sriman Narayana and Mahalakshmi	Only Sriman Narayana, Mahalakshmi is a jeevatma
2.	Who can grant mohsham?	Sriman Narayana and/or Mahalakshmi can grant moksham	Only Sriman Narayana can grant moksham
3.	What is the role of Mahalakshmi?	She acts as recommending agency (purushakaratvam) as well as moksham granting agency. She also joins Sriman Narayana as enjoyer of muktas service (bhokta)	She only acts as recommending agency (purushakaratvam) and be bhokta along with Sriman Narayana.
4.	What is the means (upaya) for moksham?	Bhakti Yoga or Prapatti (total and unconditional surrender)	Only Prapatti
5.	What is prapatti?	A separate ritual to be performed with the necessary prerequisites	Just declaring oneself to be a Vaishnava via Panca Samskaram is prapatti.
6.	Nitya Karma	Must be performed by all, including sanyasees	Need not be performed by prapannas, but must do anyway to set an example for others.
7.	What about the papa karma of prapannas (ones who have performed prapatti)?	Due to his unlimited compassion Sriman Narayana will erase the papa of prapannas?	The lord actually loves to remove the sins of prapannas like a cow licks the impurities off of her calf, and like a lover enjoys the impurities in the body of the loved
8.	Acharya paramparai	Same as Thenkalai up until Ramanuja. The preeminent acharya after that is Swami Sri Desikan	Same as Vadakalai up until Ramanuja. The preeminent acharya after that is Swami Manavala Mamunigal

Partial list of cultural differences:

No.	Concept	Vadakalai	Thenkalai
1.	Namam	U shaped with turmeric srichoornam in yellow color	Y shaped with turmeric srichoornam in red color
2.	Prostration	Four times	Strictly one time
3.	Madisar	Different from smarta	Similar to smarta
4.	Serving food	Rice and ghee first, everything else after that	Everything first, then rice and ghee

I am sure I am missing a few, but I think I got most of them.

[ravi-iyengar]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

Dear VSR Swami, I agree with you, Adiyen has also undergone such nasty comments and bad language. It is more pronounced in a very famous divya desam in the heart of chennai, near to the beach. I leave to your judgement swami. But Perumal is beyond all this, let us not involve him.
Dasan
Ravi

[vsrajagopalan]

Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

Dear Sri Vaishnavas, and Sri Ravi Iyengar,
I have only generalised the there is some animosity between the two sects. But if you see the type of people who indulge in such activities in divya desams your blood will boil. with tuft dwadasa oordva pundram punja kacham the kind of language used by such people is unbearable. I have seen in close quarters. Under such circumstances you really get angry even with perumal for letting such people so close to him to do kainkaryams.
VSR