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  • Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

    Dear Bruhaspathi swamin,I am starting a new thread beacause of a nagging doubt for a long time. I am sure manymany may hv the same doubt.We hv a lot of quarrel in almost every divya desam were money plays predominantly. Example Srirangam, Thirumala and Kanchi on the basis vadakalai and thenkalai. Sriraragam Ranganathar has a strong Tenkalai thiruman srichurnam. In pomano USA the same Ranganathar sports Vadakalai.In Thiruvanadapuram the same Ranganathar has only Gopi Chandanam. Where as the the Bhagavatham Vyasar says Lalate kasturi thilakam.!!! Vyasa is the ultimate pramanam for this particular issue, for we agree that vyasa actually has seen Vasudeva Krishnan and saying it. If you do not take vyasa as pramanam. then there is no Krishna at all. Who are we to add thiruman srichurnam to perumal according to our ahangarams. Are these attitudes comes under dur abhimanam, which keeps god away, far away from us?From when onwards this vadakalai thenkalai bedam started and for what purpose? Since when we shifted to thirman srichurnam from thilakam?Many may hv these kind of doubts but to whom to go to? Hope u do not mind these questions and offer your explanation

  • #2
    Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

    Der Sri VSR,
    I have started typing reply to you, and almost at the time of finishing reply, power cut happen
    and all the typed matters had gone.
    So, now again I am starting to reply you.
    இநà¯Âத தஙà¯Âகள௠கேளà¯Âவிகà¯Âக௠பதில௠தரà¯Âவதறà¯Âக௠மà¯Âன௠- சாஸà¯Âதிரம௠எனà¯Âறால௠எனà¯Âன? ஸமà¯Âபà¯Âரதாயம௠எனà¯Âறால௠எனà¯Âன? கà¯Âà®°à¯Âஹà¯Âய சூதà¯Âரம௠எனà¯Âறால௠எனà¯Âன? நாம௠அவசியம௠பணà¯Âணவேணà¯Âடிய ஸமà¯Âஸà¯Âகாரஙà¯Âகள௠எனà¯Âன? போனà¯Âà®± பல அடிபà¯Âபடை விஷயஙà¯Âகள௠தெரிநà¯Âதிரà¯Âநà¯Âதாலà¯Âதான௠அடà¯Âதà¯Âதà¯Âச௠சொலà¯Âலபà¯Âபோகà¯Âம௠இதறà¯Âகான பதில௠தà¯Âà®°à¯Âபà¯Âதிகரமானதாக இரà¯Âகà¯Âகà¯Âà®®à¯Â. எனவே கீழே கொடà¯Âதà¯Âதà¯Âளà¯Âள பிடிஎப௠பைலில௠உளà¯Âள விஷயஙà¯Âகளை நனà¯Âறாக கவனமாக வாசிகà¯Âகவà¯Âà®®à¯Â. பினà¯Âனர௠இநà¯Âத கà¯Âறிபà¯Âபிடà¯Âட விஷயதà¯Âதிறà¯Âகான பதிலை வாசிகà¯Âகவà¯Âà®®à¯Â.

    எவà¯Âவளவோ ஆராயà¯Âசிகளைச௠செயà¯Âதà¯Â, à®’à®°à¯Âவன௠காலைகà¯Âகடனைக௠கழிகà¯Âகà¯Âà®®à¯Âபோத௠எநà¯Âத திசை நோகà¯Âகி அமைரவேணà¯Âடà¯Âம௠எனà¯Âபத௠மà¯Âதறà¯Âகொணà¯Âட௠எவà¯Âவளவோ விஷயஙà¯Âகளை மிகத௠தெளிவாகக௠கூறிய à®®à¯Âனà¯Âனோரà¯Âகள௠(சாஸà¯Âதிரகà¯Âகாரரà¯Âகளà¯Â) தாஙà¯Âகள௠கà¯Âறிபà¯Âபிடà¯Âடà¯Âளà¯Âள இநà¯Âத திரà¯Âமண௠விஷயதà¯Âதில௠தஙà¯Âகள௠கவனதà¯Âதைச௠செலà¯Âதà¯Âதவிலà¯Âலை. காரணம௠அவரà¯Âகள௠இதறà¯Âக௠அதà¯Âதனை à®®à¯Âகà¯Âகியதà¯Âதà¯Âவம௠கொடà¯Âகà¯Âகவிலà¯Âலை எனà¯Âபதே. ஶà¯Âரீமணவாள மாமà¯Âநிகள௠மறà¯Âà®±à¯Âம௠ஶà¯Âரீஸà¯Âவாமி தேசிகன௠இரà¯Âவரà¯Âம௠சறà¯Âறேரகà¯Âகà¯Âறைய சம காலதà¯Âதவரà¯Âகளà¯Â. ஶà¯Âரீஸà¯Âவாமி மணவாள மாமà¯Âநிகள௠ஓராண௠வழியில௠வநà¯Âத ஆசாரà¯Âய பரமà¯Âபரையைச௠சேரà¯Âநà¯Âதவரà¯Â. ஶà¯Âரீஸà¯Âவாமி தேசிகனோ பூரà¯Âவாசாரà¯Âயர௠ஒரà¯Âவரின௠தாயார௠(பெணà¯Â) வழியில௠தோனà¯Âறியவர௠ஆனால௠அபார ஜà¯Âஞானதà¯Âதà¯Âடன௠விளஙà¯Âகினாரà¯Â. ஓராண௠வழி (படà¯Âடதà¯Âதà¯Â) ஆசாரà¯Âயரைவிட ஸà¯Âவாமி தேசிகனின௠பà¯Âகழ௠மிகவà¯Âà®®à¯Â
    வà¯Âயாபகமாக இரà¯Âநà¯Âததà¯Â. அதனால௠பலர௠ஆசாரà¯Âயனைக௠காடà¯Âடிலà¯Âம௠ஸà¯Âவாமி தேசிகனைக௠கொணà¯Âடாட
    ஆரமà¯Âபிதà¯Âதாரà¯Âகளà¯Â. இதனால௠ஆசாரà¯Âயனிடம௠பகà¯Âதி மிகà¯Âநà¯Âதவரà¯Âகளான எறà¯Âà®®à¯Âபியபà¯Âபா போனà¯Âà®± ஆசாரà¯Âயரà¯Âகள௠ஒனà¯Âறிணைநà¯Âத௠சில கோடà¯Âபாடà¯Âகளை வகà¯Âதà¯Âத௠(அவறà¯Âறில௠சிலவறà¯Âறை ஸà¯Âவாமி தேசிகன௠கரà¯Âதà¯Âதà¯Âகà¯Âக௠மà¯Âரணாக வேணà¯Âடà¯Âமெனà¯Âறே அமைதà¯Âதனர௠எனà¯Âற௠கூறà¯Âகிறாரà¯Âகள௠உணà¯Âமை நமகà¯Âகà¯Âத௠தெரியவிலà¯Âலை) ஆசாரà¯Âய பகà¯Âதி உளà¯Âளவரà¯Âகள௠எலà¯Âலாம௠இதைதà¯Âதான௠பினà¯Âபறà¯Âறவேணà¯Âடà¯Âம௠என ஒர௠பேதம௠உரà¯Âவாயிறà¯Âà®±à¯Â. இதனாலà¯Â
    கோஷà¯Âடிகள௠தோனà¯Âறின. வேததà¯Âதையà¯Âà®®à¯Â, வடமொழியையà¯Âம௠பà¯Âரதானமாகக௠கொணà¯Âடவரà¯Âகள௠ஸà¯Âவாமி தேசிகனைக௠கொணà¯Âடாடà¯Âம௠கோஷà¯Âடியில௠மிகà¯Âநà¯Âதிரà¯Âநà¯Âதனரà¯Â. தென௠மொழியான தமிழையà¯Âà®®à¯Â, பà¯Âரபநà¯Âததà¯Âதையà¯Âம௠போறà¯Âà®±à¯Âம௠பகà¯Âதரà¯Âகள௠ஓராணà¯Âவழி ஆசாரà¯Âயரà¯Âகளின௠கோஷà¯Âடியில௠மிகà¯Âநà¯Âதிரà¯Âநà¯Âதனரà¯Â. எனவே, தென௠மொழிகà¯Âக௠பà¯Âராதானà¯Âயம௠அளிதà¯Âதவரà¯Âகள௠தெனà¯Âகலையார௠எனà¯Âà®±à¯Âà®®à¯Â, வடமொழிகà¯Âக௠பà¯Âராதானà¯Âயம௠அளிதà¯Âதவரà¯Âகள௠வடகலை எனà¯Âà®±à¯Âம௠தேறினரà¯Â.
    பகà¯Âதி, ஜà¯Âஞானமà¯Â, தானமà¯Â, தரà¯Âமம௠இவை எதà¯Âவà¯Âம௠இறைவனை அடைவதறà¯Âக௠சாதனம௠ஆகமாடà¯Âடா எனà¯Âபதே வேதாநà¯Âத மதக௠கோடà¯Âபாடà¯Â.
    ஸமà¯Âபà¯Âரதாயம௠எனà¯Âபத௠சà¯Âà®°à¯Âதி, ஸà¯Âà®®à¯Âà®°à¯Âதி, சூதà¯Âரம௠ஆகியவறà¯Âறையà¯Âம௠தாணà¯Âடி ஒர௠ஈடà¯Âபாடà¯Â, உறà¯Âசாகம௠போனà¯Âறவறà¯Âறை à®Âà®±à¯Âபடà¯Âதà¯Âதத௠தோனà¯Âறிய ஒர௠à®Âà®±à¯Âபாட௠எனà¯Âபதை மேறà¯Âகணà¯Âட கடà¯Âடà¯Âரையில௠படிதà¯Âதீரà¯Âகளà¯Â.
    இநà¯Âத திரà¯Âமண௠சமாசà¯Âசாரம௠மà¯Âà®±à¯Âறிலà¯Âம௠ஸமà¯Âபà¯Âரதாயதà¯Âதைச௠சேரà¯Âநà¯Âததà¯Â. எனவே இதை அவரவர௠விரà¯Âபà¯Âபபà¯Âபடி அலà¯Âலத௠அவரவர௠பரமà¯Âபரை பெரியவரà¯Âகள௠ஆசாரà¯Âயரà¯Âகளின௠அறிவà¯Âரைபà¯Âபடி அநà¯Âà®·à¯Âடிபà¯Âபதால௠எநà¯Âத தவறà¯Âம௠இலà¯Âலை. திரà¯Âமண௠தரிபà¯Âபதன௠தாதà¯Âபரà¯Âயமà¯Â, பகவான௠திரà¯Âவடியை நம௠நெறà¯Âறியில௠பதிதà¯Âதà¯Âகà¯Âகொளà¯Âவத௠எனà¯Âபதே,
    அநà¯Âத விஷà¯Âண௠பாததà¯Âதை அவனவனà¯Âகà¯Âக௠எபà¯Âபடி வரையத௠தெரிகிறதோ அபà¯Âபடி வரைநà¯Âதà¯Âகொளà¯Âளடà¯Âடà¯Âமே?!
    கலை எனà¯Âà®± சொலà¯Âலà¯Âகà¯Âகே ஒர௠கà¯Âறிபà¯Âபிடà¯Âட பொரà¯Âளில௠நà¯Âடà¯Âபமான அறிவ௠எனலாமà¯Â. உதராணமாக ஓவியமà¯Â, கடà¯Âடà¯Âரை, பாடலà¯Â, ஆடல௠போனà¯Âறவை ஒவà¯Âவொனà¯Âà®±à¯Âம௠ஒர௠கலை. இதà¯Âபோனà¯Âà®± எணà¯Âணிறநà¯Âத கலைககள௠இரà¯Âநà¯Âதாலà¯Âதான௠வாழà¯Âகà¯Âகை ரசனையாக இரà¯Âகà¯Âகà¯Âà®®à¯Â. அநà¯Âதநà¯Âத கலையை அதனதனà¯Âகà¯Âகà¯Âரிய விததà¯Âதில௠ரசிகà¯Âகவேணà¯Âடà¯Âà®®à¯Â. நமà¯Âமிடம௠உளà¯Âள கலையை அடà¯Âதà¯Âதவரà¯Âகள௠வியநà¯Âத௠பாராடà¯Âடà¯Âà®®à¯Âபடி செயà¯Âவதிலà¯Âதான௠நம௠திறன௠இரà¯Âகà¯Âகிறதà¯Â. அடà¯Âதà¯Âதவர௠கலையை பழிபà¯Âபதால௠நம௠கலையை வளரà¯Âகà¯Âகவà¯Âம௠மà¯Âடியாதà¯Â, எதையà¯Âம௠ரசிகà¯Âகவà¯Âம௠மà¯Âடியாதà¯Â. நமà¯Âகலையைப௠போறà¯Âறி வளரà¯Âபà¯Âபோமà¯Â, அடà¯Âதà¯Âதவர௠கலையை ரசிதà¯Âத௠மகிழà¯Âவோமà¯Â.


    "வெளà¯Âளை நிறதà¯Âதொர௠பூனை எஙà¯Âகள௠வீடà¯Âடில௠வளரà¯Âத௠கணà¯Âடீரà¯Â
    பிளà¯Âளைகள௠பெறà¯Âறத பூனை அவை பேரà¯Âகà¯Âகொர௠நிறம௠ஆகà¯Âà®®à¯Â
    சாமà¯Âபல௠நிறமொர௠கà¯Âடà¯Âடி கரà¯Âஞà¯Âசாநà¯Âத௠நிறமொர௠கà¯Âடà¯Âடி
    பாமà¯Âப௠நிறமொர௠கà¯Âடà¯Âடி வெளà¯Âளைபà¯Âபாலின௠நிறமொர௠கà¯Âடà¯Âடி
    எநà¯Âத நிறமிரà¯Âநà¯Âதாலà¯Âம௠அவை யாவà¯Âம௠ஓர௠தரம௠அனà¯Âறோ
    இநà¯Âத நிறம௠சிறிதெனà¯Âà®±à¯Âம௠இத௠à®Âà®±à¯Âறம௠எனà¯Âà®±à¯Âம௠சொலà¯Âலலாமோ?" - எனà¯Âறான௠பாரதி.


    அவன௠சாதிபேதமே கூடாத௠எனà¯Âறானà¯Â. நாம௠நம௠சாதிகà¯Âகà¯Âளà¯Âளேயே பேதம௠பாரà¯Âதà¯Âதà¯Âகà¯Âகொணடிரà¯Âகà¯Âகிறோமà  Â¯Â.


    சணà¯Âடை போடà¯Âகிறவரà¯Âகள௠போடà¯Âடà¯Âகà¯Âகொளà¯Âளடà¯Âடà¯Âà®®à¯Â, அவரà¯Âகளà¯Âகà¯Âகாக இதனால௠à®Âதà¯Âம௠பயனிலà¯Âலை எனà¯Âற௠எபà¯Âபோத௠ஜà¯Âஞானம௠வரà¯Âகிறதோ அபà¯Âபோத௠வரடà¯Âடà¯Âà®®à¯Â. நாம௠அதில௠தலையிடவேணà¯Âடாமà¯Â.
    இதà¯Âவே நம௠கரà¯Âதà¯Âதà¯Â.


    Thanks for choosing this forum for asking your vaideeka, Shastra, Sampradaya doubts,
    please visit frequently and share information anything you think that will be useful for this forum members.
    Encourage your friends to become member of this forum.
    Best Wishes and Best Regards,
    Dr.NVS

    Comment


    • #3
      Mama

      I cudn't read your response becoz it appears cryptic.

      please suggest what fonts to be used.
      Last edited by bmbcAdmin; 09-12-11, 23:09.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

        Please check your browsers View Character encoding settings
        that should be anything refer to utf-8 or unicode supportable
        It should not be 'Western'

        This site uses Unicode Tamil fonts. To see them displayed correctly, follow the steps below.
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        Thanks for choosing this forum for asking your vaideeka, Shastra, Sampradaya doubts,
        please visit frequently and share information anything you think that will be useful for this forum members.
        Encourage your friends to become member of this forum.
        Best Wishes and Best Regards,
        Dr.NVS

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

          Respected Vaishnava Bhagavathas,

          Adiyen has a simple point of view, which adiyen feels should sound logical for any Sri Vaishnavan. It is clear from our mundane life experience as well as Srimad Bhagavatham, Srimad Bhagavat Geeta and many Vedic and Puranic scriptures about life, before and after life etc; that our body is matter and soul is the unseen connect, the driver. Our body is like the vehicle and the soul is the driver. Without the driver, the body is lifeless. That being the case, why connect/disconnect based on the religious markings on the forehead in the body. Amazingly we do not leave the discrimination of markings in people's foreheads alone but also involve the Almighty by marking accordingly the Moolavar, Utsava Murthy and the Azwars accordingly. It is like marking territories based on domination - sorry to say - like in the animal kingdom. What then will differentiate our method against the animal base methods? Not only reading the Bhagavatham and other scriptures like a newspaper but imbibing the hidden meaning. Sri Lakshmi Narayanan seeks and anticipates our pure love out of his limitless Compassion and mercy for us and not the markings. While adiyen was typing this, a black ant was crawling by my side carrying in its mouth a sugar cube (its quota of food for today). Adiyen tried hard but could not find any markings on its forehead but was yet again amazed by the limitless karunya of Perumal to ensure that each insect gets its food for the day!!! OM Namo Narayanaya!!!! JAI SRI RAM!!!!
          Dasan

          Kann Kudutha Vanitham
          Maadabhusi Ravi ( @ Srinivasan) S K Iyengar

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

            Dear Sri Vaishnavas, and Sri Ravi Iyengar,
            I have only generalised the there is some animosity between the two sects. But if you see the type of people who indulge in such activities in divya desams your blood will boil. with tuft dwadasa oordva pundram punja kacham the kind of language used by such people is unbearable. I have seen in close quarters. Under such circumstances you really get angry even with perumal for letting such people so close to him to do kainkaryams.
            VSR

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

              Dear Sri Vaishnavas, and Sri Ravi Iyengar,
              I have only generalised the there is some animosity between the two sects. But if you see the type of people who indulge in such activities in divya desams your blood will boil. with tuft dwadasa oordva pundram punja kacham the kind of language used by such people is unbearable. I have seen in close quarters. Under such circumstances you really get angry even with perumal for letting such people so close to him to do kainkaryams.
              VSR

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              • #8
                Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

                Dear VSR Swami, I agree with you, Adiyen has also undergone such nasty comments and bad language. It is more pronounced in a very famous divya desam in the heart of chennai, near to the beach. I leave to your judgement swami. But Perumal is beyond all this, let us not involve him.
                Dasan
                Ravi
                Dasan

                Kann Kudutha Vanitham
                Maadabhusi Ravi ( @ Srinivasan) S K Iyengar

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                • #9
                  Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai Let me give a quick and partial list of the 18 or so differences between the two kalais. Let me also add that the two kalais lived happily together despite their doctrinal differences up until about 300 or so years. A partial list of major differences on matters of doctrine and theology:
                  No.
                  Concept Vadakalai Thenkalai
                  1. Who is supreme Ishwara? Sriman Narayana and Mahalakshmi Only Sriman Narayana, Mahalakshmi is a jeevatma
                  2. Who can grant mohsham? Sriman Narayana and/or Mahalakshmi can grant moksham Only Sriman Narayana can grant moksham
                  3. What is the role of Mahalakshmi? She acts as recommending agency (purushakaratvam) as well as moksham granting agency. She also joins Sriman Narayana as enjoyer of muktas service (bhokta) She only acts as recommending agency (purushakaratvam) and be bhokta along with Sriman Narayana.
                  4. What is the means (upaya) for moksham? Bhakti Yoga or Prapatti (total and unconditional surrender) Only Prapatti
                  5. What is prapatti? A separate ritual to be performed with the necessary prerequisites Just declaring oneself to be a Vaishnava via Panca Samskaram is prapatti.
                  6. Nitya Karma Must be performed by all, including sanyasees Need not be performed by prapannas, but must do anyway to set an example for others.
                  7. What about the papa karma of prapannas (ones who have performed prapatti)? Due to his unlimited compassion Sriman Narayana will erase the papa of prapannas? The lord actually loves to remove the sins of prapannas like a cow licks the impurities off of her calf, and like a lover enjoys the impurities in the body of the loved
                  8. Acharya paramparai Same as Thenkalai up until Ramanuja. The preeminent acharya after that is Swami Sri Desikan Same as Vadakalai up until Ramanuja. The preeminent acharya after that is Swami Manavala Mamunigal
                  Partial list of cultural differences:
                  No.
                  Concept
                  Vadakalai
                  Thenkalai
                  1. Namam U shaped with turmeric srichoornam in yellow color Y shaped with turmeric srichoornam in red color
                  2. Prostration Four times Strictly one time
                  3. Madisar Different from smarta Similar to smarta
                  4. Serving food Rice and ghee first, everything else after that Everything first, then rice and ghee


                  I am sure I am missing a few, but I think I got most of them.


                  Thanks for choosing this forum for asking your vaideeka, Shastra, Sampradaya doubts,
                  please visit frequently and share information anything you think that will be useful for this forum members.
                  Encourage your friends to become member of this forum.
                  Best Wishes and Best Regards,
                  Dr.NVS

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                  • #10
                    Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

                    We need not go into this complex matter now since from time immemorial dissimilarities do exist between the two sects and nothing has changed . We would

                    only be giving vent to our feelings in public which would not produce any desired result. As long as there is no unity between both thenkalai and vadakalai sects in

                    all respects the status quo ante would continue. Let us pray for the well being of all irrespective of the customs followed at different Vaishnavite temples.

                    PC RAMABADRAN

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                    • #11
                      Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

                      Excellent Sir. I Thank you very much for clearing my nagging doubt for quite a long time.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

                        Thank You Sir, Now I got it.
                        Regards ans Namaskarams
                        Radhakrishnan

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                        • #13
                          Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

                          Ha Ha Ha funny, we speak about vadakalai and thenkalai, when the younger generation go to the extent of marrying chinese !!!We should preserve our vaishnavite culture, imbibe in children and sink such minor differences

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                          • #14
                            Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

                            Madam , The question has been raised first of all to know what is what from the scholars and further we have to educate our children about the richness of our culture and to advice them not to sink in differences your view and opinion about the thread to your age is most appreciable

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                            • #15
                              Re: Vadakalai vs Thenkalai

                              Sir I am using Mozilla fire fox in my pc. I have followed your instructions but still i could not get the correct version of cryptic message.Meanwhile when i tried in internet explorer it asked me to install adobe flash player i have installed that too still couldn't.

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